New Delhi: Former Delhi chief minister Sheila Dikshit was born on 31 March 1938 in the city of Kapurthala in the princely state of Kapurthala in British India, now in modern-day Punjab.
The Congress leader won three consecutive elections between 1998 and 2013, serving as chief minister. She was eventually defeated from her New Delhi constituency by Aam Aadmi Party national convenor Arvind Kejriwal.
Dikshit was known for transforming Delhi’s public services and infrastructure, particularly the metro, as well as the push to make the Capital greener.
In this September 2003 episode of ‘Walk the Talk’ with Shekhar Gupta, Dikshit spoke about her frustrations with civil servants, the multiplicity of authorities governing Delhi, her experiences with the Vajpayee-led NDA at the Centre, and why young people liked her as a politician.
SG: These are not exactly the corridors of power but this is Connaught Place—the very heart of Delhi. My guest today, a very endearing person, Sheila Dikshit, the chief minister of Delhi.
Sheila ji, welcome to Walk The Talk. How nice to have you here early morning in Connaught Place.
SD: Thank you. I don’t think I’ve ever been so early to Connaught Place ever in my life.
SG: Well, I think politicians start their day early. People like me, journalists have a problem because we….
SD: Work till late?
SG: We tend to work till late but you politicians work till late and start your day early.
SD: Yes, that’s true. But starting a day early means the manner in which you start the day. Get on to your cup of tea and newspapers. I think that’s how you start your day. Everybody starts it like that. One would like to go for a walk or do other things, perhaps a little bit of exercise, but it never happens.
SG: You are not exactly seen as a veteran but you have been in politics for a very long time.
SD: What do you mean I haven’t (been) seen a veteran but I’ve been in politics for a long time?
SG: Well, somehow, you know, young people like you, which is not true of many other politicians…
SD: Well, that’s a compliment, thank you but..
SG: …There’s a certain aversion that the young have towards politics and politicians.
SD: That’s true because…that’s true…I don’t think we’ve conducted ourselves in the manner that the country expected us to conduct ourselves.
SG: Why do you think so?
SD: I don’t know, we have. We’re not the most loveable of people, we tend to become arrogant when we are in power and also I think there’s a feeling that if you’re a politician or you’re a political person and if you don’t seem to have any means of livelihood then you’re bound to make a fast buck when you’re there so that brings your stature down.
They walk past a metro construction site.
SG: My apologies, in fact, it’s your city but you know, the metro is now being built so Connaught Place is like dug up.
SD: Yea yea yea.
SG: Is it because you become a politician when you don’t have anything else to do and people, or young people, dislike you or is it because you have no adherence to principles? The way our politics has been…
SD: Yes, it’s a mixture of all things. You see, people expect to see role models; to see role models in politics or politicians, and that role model doesn’t come through. And especially today’s role model is the model who’s a professional, earns well, who lives sophisticatedly; who’s all that young people aspire to be…a good home, a lifestyle which is very comfortable, even luxurious.
Now, all that, somehow young people don’t find in…politicians. And more so, there’s a kind of a great generation gap now, you know. Modern India has become very different from the India when we were young. You know, we weren’t so critical. Neither did we look at people who were in politics or in public.
SG: But you know, that’s not exactly true overseas, or internationally or particularly in other democracies, say in the US or Britain. Tony Blair can be very popular with the young or can be a role model. Or even Bill Clinton, you know.
SD: That’s right, that’s right.
SG: Why is India so different?
SD: I don’t know. I think our social values are different. I have another thing. I think our society is going through a lot of change. And in that, there are a lot of contradictions, you know.
On the one hand, you want to see something very modern. On the other hand, you slot a person and say, well, that person can’t do this, you know.
SG: But that’s what people said about Rajiv Gandhi also for example…
SD: Exactly, yes. Yes.
SG: …he’s young, how can he govern a country?
SD: No, no. There was another thing. They suddenly found that the watches that he was wearing and the shoes that he was wearing…they were looked at, you know, critically. Why? Because they were used to the old style of living where the Nehru and the Indira Gandhi’s were still very much there. So they… latched on to that. Now today…
SG: They said, this is a baba-log government.
SD: Yes, they said funny things like that. So you really don’t know what turns on the young, what switches them off, and at what time what will hit them.
SG: You’ve made your own troubles in the bureaucracy, haven’t you?
SD: I wouldn’t say troubles, but I have found them sometimes very exasperating.
SG: Give me some examples of that.
SD: I’ll tell you exasperation.
You see, what I feel is something that is laid down, it is within the rule book or the law book, whatever they follow, regulations. Even that, they dissect and they find means somehow to delay a thing rather than take a decision. That’s a very peculiar thing that has developed in our bureaucracy.
And I think we always raise, always an excuse, ‘this can’t be done’. Why can’t it be done?
SG: Is this new or was this always there?
SD: It has become increasingly more.
SG: It’s becoming increasingly worse? And I thought we were deregulating making the government more efficient.
SD: Yes, we are. But you know, bureaucracy is a continuous institution. There are no breaks in bureaucracy. So, you can’t start with a clean slate. So, the old always comes on with the new. And that kind of a resistance…
SG: Are there times when you get really exasperated, angry, or frustrated with bureaucracy?
SD: I try not to get angry, but I certainly get very exasperated. And sometimes I say, but why? Why are you afraid? Now, you see, for instance, in Delhi, for instance, you have these high court rulings and Supreme Court rulings.
SG: About cleaning up the city?
SD: Cleaning up the city, anything at all. And the courts are active here.
SG: Which is a good thing.
SD: Which is very good. But you know what happens? The only time I find a bureaucrat reacting, court case ho gaya hai, I must do this. Otherwise, you know, there’ll be contempt. So, the only thing they seem to be worried about is contempt.
I tell them, suppose there was a contempt; suppose there is something you have to do. ‘But, they (the courts) call it first.’ How is this going to make a difference? At the maximum, you go to Tihar jail for a day or two.
SG: That’s not a nice day out.
SD: No, it’s not a nice day out. But are you going to get on with your work or not? First, you wait for a Supreme Court or a high court.
SG: Yes.
SD: For something that you should be doing it, things like cleanliness or things like keeping up a transport system.
SG: Why shouldn’t you wait for the court to do this?
SD: Yes.
SG: These are your primary duties.
SD: So, when you don’t do it, then you feel…You don’t do it, that’s bad.
Then you don’t do it because there is a court case. So, you see, and sometimes I find, you know… For instance, they will go and demolish something. Parso tarikh hai court ke, aaj hum kar de.
And it’s all a wishy-washy sort of a thing, you know.
SG: It’s a cosmetic demolition.
SD: It’s a cosmetic thing.
SG: They bring down a balcony or a veranda.
SD: No, removal of jhuggis, for instance. I ask the bureaucrats. Tumne kaha ki juggi yaha se hata do, hata di.
But high court ki ruling yeh bhi kehti hai, Supreme Court ki ruling yeh bhi kehti hai, when you dislocate people, take them to a new place.
They must have power, they must have water, they must have roads. They must have a decent style…enable them to live decently. Wo nahi karenge. Woh toh court dekhne aayegi nahi. Par haan yeh humne khana-puri (mere formality) kar di, cosmetic changes kar di. Now, that is what is very, very frustrating.
And it’s very annoying. To me, it gets very annoying. Why can’t you do it properly? You’re shifting human beings. All that you’re doing for, the court may come down upon you.
SG: So, basically, you’re filling in the blanks in a court order. And saying, I was ordered to do this. I have more or less done this.
SD: Yes.
SG: So, it’s not done with the objective with which the court might have given this order.
SD: Yes.
SG: Isn’t it also odd that our system, it’s not just the bureaucrats, it’s also politicians…they seem to be more worried about orders of the court than about diktat of the people or for civil servants about orders of the political masters. Why are they not scared of them?
SD: I don’t think the politicians are particularly afraid of the courts, no.
SG: Right.
SD: I think that political people tend to be more adventurous. I will tell you that.
SG: Or a bit more lawless?
SD: No no. Well, if you put it that way. I would say that they tend to be adventurous because they are willing to take risks.
And also, there isn’t a feeling of, I can sit back for 30 years. My job is there. Or, you know, my career is… Because you go back to the people every five years. So, you’re always…
SG: But a civil servant doesn’t have to?
SD: No, civil servant, nobody has to. I remember when we took the oath last time, 1998, was it?
SG: Right, as chief minister.
SD: And the first thing I said was, now, what do we do for the next election? How do we work towards the next election? So, for a political person, the psyche is that you know, you won an election, fine, wonderful. But there’s going to be another one in five years.
SG: Right. But a civil servant has no such fear?
SD: No, no, no, not at all.
SG: Give me some examples, some, a couple of examples, when you felt really exasperated or helpless and you said, how do I break through this? This is not moving anywhere. Dealing with your civil service or dealing with the system?
SD: Well, I could tell you umpteen examples, you know…I’ll tell you a very recent story. You know, we brought down the stamp duty.
SG: Stamp duty on the registration of property in Delhi.
SD: Properties, right. From 13 or 15 percent to 8 percent.
SG: Right.
SD: Okay. Now, it is decided. It was given in the budget, the cabinet passed it, and all very well.
Suddenly in May, when it should have become effective on the 1st of April, you know…automatically that. Suddenly in May, I get a piece of paper for the cabinet saying that the staff duty needs to be, you know, ratified.
I said, why? Why are you wasting time?
SG: And this piece of paper came from whom?
SD: From the cabinet….
SG: Right.
SD: You know…as an agenda point.
SG: From your bureaucracy?
SD: From the bureaucracy, whoever it may be. And I suddenly said, but yeh to 1st April ko nahi lagu hua kya? ‘Nahi ji, woh notification nahi nikla, kyunki isme NDMC…ka bhi area hai, MCD’. Maine kaha par MCD se toh baat hogayi thi bhai. They know it. There’s 6 percent for women…8 percent…
SG: I believe you reduced stamp duties in Delhi heavily.
SD: Heavily.
SG: Otherwise it was an incentive for people to use black money.
SD: Black money and come out with the correct…
SG: And not register the deals properly. And you also gave an incentive for properties to be registered in the name of women.
SD: 2 percent less if it was in the name of a woman. Now, the whole process—every time they would come—‘aaj mahilaon wala karenge, aaj MCD wala karenge.’ 3 times or 4 times the paper went up and down. Now, it was so exasperating.
At the end of it all, the government lost money because people stopped registering their properties, they thought ‘yeh toh 8 percent hone wala hai toh abhi kyun kare jab tak notification na nikle.’
Now, I look at it, I’m not trying to point fingers or anything but I asked the bureaucracy one thing. I said, suppose, hypothetically, we’ve lost 100 crores. Who’s responsible for this? Not us, not the legislative, not the budget, not the cabinet. Somebody has goofed up. And there’s a scare on one side, rule-bound on the other side—‘yeh bhi aisa hi hona chahiye’. I said all these things could have been done in 2 days time. Pehli April ko na lagta, 10 April ko lag jata.
Now, you see this exasperates one. People are waiting. Now what impression do you give? You give the impression of a government who’s callous, a government who’s inefficient… It could also lead to the fact that the credibility of the government goes. And, above all, the government loses revenue.
SG: And loses face.
SD: And loses faces. Now if we were to say ki bhai hume tankha iski class 4 ki 2,000 se 2,500 karni hai because mehngai hogai hai, etc etc… they will find a huge number of excuses. ‘Ki nahi ho sakta…aisa nahi ho sakta’. Then I said okay, what about the excuse for losing money?
SG: On stamp duty?
SD: On stamp duty—giving an example.
SG: And, in a way, when the government has lost money and the people have lost money.
SD: Yes, lost their money…
SG: And the black money economy has been perpetuated. You know, in Delhi, they say when you buy property, you should bring money in a wheelbarrow…because it’s all done in cash.
SD: Well, that’s what the impression is. So, I’ve given you this example merely to tell you how much time it takes from a decision taking to a notification…
SG: Where does this obstructionism come from? Is it bureaucratic or are there other motives?
SD: No, you see, it’s bureaucratic. I’ll tell you what has happened. My late husband was in the IAS, as you know. I used to always tell my husband…
SG: And your late father-in-law was the leading light of the Congress party.
SD: Right. So I used to always tell my husband, I think when you people join service, you are idealistic and you want to change the world, like all of us. So you should start by being the chief secretary and end up by being the tehsildar because…
SG: And, not the other way around?
SD: Yeah, not the other way around.
SG: That’s a unique experience—daughter-in-law of one of India’s key politicians and an IAS officer’s wife. So you’ve seen the picture from both sides up close.
SD: Both sides.
SG: You know, we keep on abusing our civil service and our system, but look at something like the metro. It’s all being done in the government structure. And how well it’s being done, how clean it’s being done.
SD: How beautiful, yeah.
SG: You know, we stand at this side, Connaught Place—which is all dug up from inside.
SD: Have you seen the corridors going inside? It’s absolutely marvelous.
SG: That’s right. And how neatly it’s being done with the minimum possible disruption, which is not how it happened, say, in Calcutta 20 years ago. So how does the same system get something right?
SD: Now, you see, I always tell my bureaucracy, particularly the engineers and all, to take this as a role model. They can do it, why can’t you and I do it? You see, there is no will. And you know, I think what bureaucracy needs, and I think we fail in that, is to charge them.
SG: So Sheila ji, why blame the civil service?
SD: No, I’m not, no no.
SG: Look at the way also they are being treated, look at UP for example, you know. People get transferred every two months or three months for the flimsiest of motives and that disease is travelling to other states as well. So, UP you have civil servants living out of circuit houses because they can’t move every three months with their children and change their schools.
SD: No, no, no, I don’t blame their civil servants entirely. No, I’m not saying that. I think it’s two hands which, you know, clap. So, it’s not just the civil servants, it’s also…
SG: Politicians are also failing to give them leadership.
SD: Yes, yes. Politicians, I’m afraid, do not give them the impression that we lead. Most politicians tend to slip into, ‘oh, afsar jo kehte hain, afsar sahib hai, wo bhi phas jaate hain’.
And the funny thing that happens is that you find the politician trying to become a bureaucrat and the bureaucrat trying to become a politician.
SG: Which could happen much more in Delhi, given its multiplicity of authorities and peculiar structure. Because of this Delhi gets sometimes the worst of both worlds…civil servants and politics.
SD: Oh, yes. But I must tell you one thing that, in spite of the multiplicity of authorities, in spite of all that is not always possible in Delhi, I’ve enjoyed it.
I really have. It’s been such a challenge, you know. And I took it up not just as something because I’ve been elected therefore, it was something. I took it up as a challenge and I enjoyed it. I have enjoyed it.
SG: Of the major things that have happened in Delhi, the metro is one. And that is where the multiplicity of authorities actually reflects most of all.
SD: Most of all, yes.
SG: Actually, your main rival is now the chairman of Delhi Metro Corporation.
SD: No, but you see, that has been made to become like that.
SG: By whom?
SD: By the central government, trying to… you know, take the credit. You know, this credit snatching that has been going on. Taking the credit, putting Mr. Khurana as the chairperson of the metro.
SG: So credit snatching between the BJP and you?
SD: Yeah, we’ve done it, so now they wanna take it away. Now, against all norms…parliamentary norms, Mr. Khurana was made the chairperson.
SG: Chairperson of Delhi Metro Corporation?
SD: Yes, and because you know, according to parliamentary practice you cannot have an office of profit.
SG: Right.
SD: But they did it.
SG: But, is this an office of profit?
SD: It is, of course, it is. Of course it is.
SG: How? Does he draw a salary?
SD: Whether it has a salary or not. You see what happens is, you cannot be the chairperson of a corporation. Unless it is constitutionally so ordained that these corporations will be outside the purview…
SG: Have you taken it up with the higher authorities in this government saying you are causing confusion, you may damage the project in the bargain?
SD: Yes, of course. Yes, yes, of course, I have.
SG: What do you hear when you tell them?
SD: It falls on their fears. But alright, that so. But metro has to go well…So you see what happens is… it’s not just the metro, we’ve done CNG. Today, Delhi is the largest…and the only city…
SG: Well, well, certainly Delhi looks and smells a much cleaner city than it was. So which one was the biggest challenge? Implementation of the CNG order to convert the public transport from diesel to CNG or was it the metro or was it clearing out polluting industries? What was the toughest of all?
SD: I think, the toughest of all was CNG. Because you know, at that time, when we did it, the technology was not really tried. Lots of money was at stake. Not only the government, you know, governments can always afford less returns to come back, but the private operators, they have to be motivated that you just do it. And we did it. And I think we did it in 2 or 3 months flat.
SG: Were there times or periods during that phase when you thought this was not going to happen?
SD: No.
SG: There were these long queues….
SD: Yes, there were long queues, we knew that it was a passing phase. One was impatient about it and thought about it. One felt that the kind of coordination that should have been there—you know pipeline should have been laid—why should people have to wait for hours and hours and hours?
But, that was there, that was managerial problems, you know. They knew we were changing, the pipes should have been laid much earlier. But apart from that, I thought that the people of Delhi bore it very well. The scooterwalas, you know, no riots or this thing. They just stood for 8 hours and then 14 hours…
SG: Except the press, which kept on getting a bit neurotic everytime.
SD: No the press, has to sell na.
SG: Well, not to sell but the press has to also reflect the problem of the people. But the fact is that, if the media, by and large, had not supported many of these environment initiatives, they would not have happened.
SD: Yes, yes. I agree. But greening of Delhi. I feel this is one of my proudest achievements, to me personally.
SG: What is that?
SD: Now you see, you greened up Delhi, from 37 square km, we are today 151 square km in just four-and-a-half years. I think that’s a great achievement.
SG: But have you felt in this process of time that you have, in fact, several masters while being the chief minister of Delhi? You have the Lieutenant Governor, you have the Ministry for Home Affairs, you have your complicated politics mand then you also have the Supreme Court of India and the High Court of Delhi; the whole judiciary somehow seems to be governing Delhi, much more than the bureaucracy and the politicians.
SD: That is a challenge... Usmein, un challenges ke bawajood, inn baadhaon ke bawajood, somehow it has to be managed. And I must tell you a fact, I have no bad relationship with anybody. I’ve managed to get what I thought was work, which we needed to do. But it has been tough.
SG: Tell me something, if you win the next election, then for five years you don’t have Madan Lal Khuranna on your back or breathing down your neck. So what are the five things you will do first of all if you know you have five years available to you? Things that you may have postponed now or the things you may itching to do for Delhi.
SD: Oh so see, one is—I must make its roads state of the art roads, especially its arterial roads. About 300 odd km of arterial roads here. We must get state-of-the-art (roads), we must not make roads where we find that water logging takes place or that they go very next year. Number two, I would like to do water harvesting in a big way in Delhi.
SG: Yeah. Because this year we have a good monsoon. Next year, it may not be the case.
SD: May not be the case. Water harvesting is something we just have to get on. And there’s small things in Delhi. Power, of course. I’m confident now will be all right. I have no problems with power.
SG: Power distribution privatisation was a good thing.
SD: It has been good. It will be much better. Remember, they inherited a very, very degradative, shabby system, so that’ll be okay.
SG: Right.
SD: Then I need to make Delhi a cultural hub, an attractive city. I need to clean it up much, much more. The river Yamuna. Oh, there’s so much to do.
SG: So that’s, that’s a lot to do.
(Edited by Sanya Mathur)